I Clarify Things For You
This story in my local paper is about a "dance hall" that recently burned to the ground. The fire is described as "suspicious", because it was the second fire there in less than a month. Why I am mentioning this? Because what the article doesn't tell you is that this was a gay club. Some toothless, Christian piece of shit burned it to the ground due to his mindless little superstition. When things like this happen, what does every single Christian say? "Oh, that doesn't represent my point of view. I hate it when the actions of a small number of people are attributed to the rest of us. Most Christians are caring, pleasant people." If most Christians were actually caring, pleasant people there would be a huge movement to ban homphobia in their churches. Period. They would respond to this sort of thing, not by ignoring the problem, but by stepping up the pressure on these hateful little shits that currently find refuge in their bizarre religion. So don't whine about how the "extremist" Christians aren't representative of what you believe...they not only accurately represent what you believe but they act on it regularly.
What's happening is this: Christians want to have it both ways...they want to cling to their strange little bedtime story (you know...the one that begins with naked people strolling around a magic garden), yet they want to deny that this belief system has any consequences. And the result is that problems like homophobia are perpetuated...so here's my advice for Christians: 1. accept that hate is a vital part of your religion. Things will never get better if you continue to look the other way, so take a little responsibility for what's going on. 2. Do something about it. Your belief system doesn't work...it's causing frightened little rednecks to burn down gay hang-outs, okay? Christians are the ones doing this and Christians will have to do the fixing.
Other points:
- If you want to oppose homosexuality you need to state a rational argument for doing so (hint: there is no rational argument for doing so). When you say, "It's wrong because God says it's wrong", what you are really saying is: "I'm an intellectual coward who uses my religion to cover up my lack of an argument."
- Homosexuality is not abnormal. Chicken nuggets are abnormal. Plastic surgery is abnormal. Homosexuality is as old as sexuality itself.
- On a related topic, if you think "traditional" marriage is important please let me know. That way you and I can have a little chat about the ancient Greeks, okay? I mean, if this particular "tradition" means so much to you, there are several others you might should be aware of.
- I've heard people say that when they see two men kiss it just freaks them out. The sight of it bothers them, and I think reactions like this only fuel and sustain the problem. Here's what Matt thinks: your gut-reaction is irrelevant. I feel sick every time I see fat people in line at a buffet...does this mean I can discriminate against fat people? Can I burn down a McDonalds? Of course not. If the sight of something bothers you don't look or, even better, grow the fuck up.
- As a final thought I just wanted to mention something I saw recently. One stereotype of the south that holds true is the whole bible-belt thing. We love our Jesus and where I live (in the Ozark Mountains) there is a church on almost every street corner. And you know how Baptist churches have those little slogans out front? I drove past one the other day that read, and I quote:
The Bible As It Is
For Men As They Are
This sort of weirdness isn't the exception, it's the rule. If you are a Christian and you disagree with what I'm saying...that's tough. Reality trumps your selective amnesia. (The comment section, however, is an option and all viewpoints are welcome...see? This tolerance thing isn't so hard, is it?).
[Update: Just wanted to add one more thing...If you haven't read the article at the top of the post, it's worth checking out. Notice how vague it is. The first fire was ruled an arson. Obviously gays are being targeted, yet no one wants to talk about this here. The south sucks. We had a cross-burning in my neighborhood only six years ago, in 1999. A couple from India moved into the area with their two children. One night they discovered a large burning cross in their yard...with two small burning crosses beside it. So, when I get upset with Christians it's because this shit is real and it needs to stop.]
What's happening is this: Christians want to have it both ways...they want to cling to their strange little bedtime story (you know...the one that begins with naked people strolling around a magic garden), yet they want to deny that this belief system has any consequences. And the result is that problems like homophobia are perpetuated...so here's my advice for Christians: 1. accept that hate is a vital part of your religion. Things will never get better if you continue to look the other way, so take a little responsibility for what's going on. 2. Do something about it. Your belief system doesn't work...it's causing frightened little rednecks to burn down gay hang-outs, okay? Christians are the ones doing this and Christians will have to do the fixing.
Other points:
- If you want to oppose homosexuality you need to state a rational argument for doing so (hint: there is no rational argument for doing so). When you say, "It's wrong because God says it's wrong", what you are really saying is: "I'm an intellectual coward who uses my religion to cover up my lack of an argument."
- Homosexuality is not abnormal. Chicken nuggets are abnormal. Plastic surgery is abnormal. Homosexuality is as old as sexuality itself.
- On a related topic, if you think "traditional" marriage is important please let me know. That way you and I can have a little chat about the ancient Greeks, okay? I mean, if this particular "tradition" means so much to you, there are several others you might should be aware of.
- I've heard people say that when they see two men kiss it just freaks them out. The sight of it bothers them, and I think reactions like this only fuel and sustain the problem. Here's what Matt thinks: your gut-reaction is irrelevant. I feel sick every time I see fat people in line at a buffet...does this mean I can discriminate against fat people? Can I burn down a McDonalds? Of course not. If the sight of something bothers you don't look or, even better, grow the fuck up.
- As a final thought I just wanted to mention something I saw recently. One stereotype of the south that holds true is the whole bible-belt thing. We love our Jesus and where I live (in the Ozark Mountains) there is a church on almost every street corner. And you know how Baptist churches have those little slogans out front? I drove past one the other day that read, and I quote:
The Bible As It Is
For Men As They Are
This sort of weirdness isn't the exception, it's the rule. If you are a Christian and you disagree with what I'm saying...that's tough. Reality trumps your selective amnesia. (The comment section, however, is an option and all viewpoints are welcome...see? This tolerance thing isn't so hard, is it?).
[Update: Just wanted to add one more thing...If you haven't read the article at the top of the post, it's worth checking out. Notice how vague it is. The first fire was ruled an arson. Obviously gays are being targeted, yet no one wants to talk about this here. The south sucks. We had a cross-burning in my neighborhood only six years ago, in 1999. A couple from India moved into the area with their two children. One night they discovered a large burning cross in their yard...with two small burning crosses beside it. So, when I get upset with Christians it's because this shit is real and it needs to stop.]
posted by Samwick @ 3:07 AM
14 Comments:
At 9:22 AM,
Anonymous said…
You do realize that many of your unsupported positions are as easy to rip up as the ones you attacked, right? You realize that you are as guilty of making unsupported value statements as those you oppose, right?
By the way, I don't agree with the religious right or with you on this. It's not a binary question, as much as both you and the christians would like it to be such.
Oh, and just for the record, I don't care what color, gender or sexual orientation someone is. A purple polka dotted, trans sexual gay man would be judged, by me, on his personality and character, and nothing else. Well, okay, I might laugh at the purple polka dots.
At 10:19 AM,
Samwick said…
Hi Eric!
"You realize that you are as guilty of making unsupported value statements as those you oppose, right?"
The difference is this: My unsupported value statements haven't burned down a night club this week. For me, it's not a question of having the "right" values so much as understanding that our values have serious consequences.
However, I honestly welcome any criticisms you might have of what I'm saying. I tend to write these posts quickly, without thinking them through, and I have no desire to operate with unquestioned assumptions. Besides, you ALWAYS kick my ass in these discussions, it's what I've come to expect.
"It's not a binary question, as much as both you and the christians would like it to be such."
I'm curious to hear your take on the situation. To me, it's an issue of intolerance, pure and simple.
Anyway, thanks for the comments.
At 4:37 PM,
Sheryl said…
Hey Matt,
I have to agree with Eric this time. I am a self defined atheist/agnostic and most of my friends in college happened to be gay and would still be great friends if we had stayed in touch. But I think the basis for bigotry are generalizations.
It's the "us versus them" thing, and I think viewing all christians as the same is just as ludicrous as viewing all gays the same, all arabs the same, all foreigners the same, all Americans the same, etc, etc.
I have some really beautiful "christian" friends. I am sorry for them that they have so much faith in their mythology that they can't see past it, but they also take the best of their religion into their lives rather than the worst. Consequently, they are beautiful people and I love them for it. In cases like my friends Tom and Oren and Sam, I honestly know that they have given serious thought to their religion and do try to apply the best aspects of it to their lives. Because the Bible is a very ecclectic text--you can make anything out of it--good or evil.
Like in the Bible it says that Jesus told people to pray in their closets and not be like the hypocrites who make a big deal about being religious. Irregardless of what I think of how the religion is applied, I have to admit that I agree with that philosophy and actually think it is completely counter to religious fundamentalism, which is anything but humble.
I think the prime problem to christianity is that the "true believers" are too stupid to understand the parts of the bible that do make sense and they select the wrong sections to follow. The Bible, like all philosophy, should be read with doubt. The parts that make sense can be used for improving understand, and the parts that make no sense should be attacked for their flaws.
I have only ever read into parts of Matthew. I'm not much of a reader. However, I do understand things when I read them. The line that reminded me of christianity in general was Matthew 5:13:
"You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost its flavor, with what will it be salted? It is then good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men."
That is the problem with modern chritianity is that it has become so ritualistic that in many cases it is salt that has lost its savor.
It's like when we used to recite the pledge of allegience in Middle School every day. Recitation and memorization with no thought as to what things mean leads to nothing but mental voids.
Memorization is so mindless that perhaps the buddhists should use it as a form of meditation for clearing the mind. That is the core problem of most religions (if you ask me.)
At 4:48 PM,
Sheryl said…
PS I really like your blog. :-)
At 6:17 PM,
Snave said…
I like the angry Matt. He is just as insightful as the mellow Matt. And when the two meld together? It's blog bliss!
I think most religions that find themselves in positions of power tend to lose sight of teachings on which they are based. The human element creeps in and takes over, wrecking what might have had the potential to be a good thing.
Maybe the religion of Islam could use a self-exam from time-to-time, just as southern-style U.S. Christianity could. A regular self-exam can help one prevent cancer in many cases. If fundamentalists realize "this policy goes against what our prophet taught" they might gradually pressure the hardliners out of the community, which in a disgusting analogy, would be like excising tumors.
I'd agree that there is relevance in numbers when it comes to people in large groups thinking the same thoughts and advocating the same positions. I also agree there is something to the idea that the Bible Belt is not exactly the Belt of Tolerance, and that there are lots of folks who subscribe to such ways of thinking and behave in superstition-driven ways.
On the other hand, in the red-state-minded area of Oregon where I live, there are a lot of devout Christians who are simply honest live-and-let-live types, and I don't see too many of the pop-a-vein apoplectic types running around telling everyone to repent. I know there are a substantial number of those folks around, like in the local Baptist and Assembly of God churches for example (I have been to their services), but these folks tend to be pretty quiet about things.
Some Christians complain about being persecuted by those of us who are of a more secular nature. Are they the same people who turn around and persecute others based on race, religion, gender, sexual preference?
What they might do or say as individuals doesn't bother me all that much. What they might do when they get involved in large-scale groupthink? That's when I begin to get scared.
At 6:25 PM,
Snave said…
Also, fantastic comment, Sheryl! Through questioning, we can build stronger ideas about something... by taking it apart, examining it, and reassembling it in a new light provided us by new informational insights. I think this is simply a normal process in human growth and learning. Sadly, some churches teach against such an approach. Is it because free-thinking individuals are harder to control?
I also know some wonderful people who are Christians. Like the folks you know, I think they have taken the best and most positive teachings of Jesus and applied them to their lives in constructive ways that do not harm others. Rather than getting all pop-eyed and apoplectic about their faith, they simply live it.
I attended a local Methodist church regularly from age 15-18 and again from age 33 to 42. I tried to be a believer, but it didn't ever work for me. Not worrying about it for the past 6 years has given me a feeling of freedom like I have never had. I felt the need to rid my life of superstition and ritual behaviors, and finally admitting to myself that I am basically an agnostic was liberating. I promised myself I wouldn't go back to any churches unless it was for weddings or funerals, and that self-promise has been much easier to keep than I imagined.
At 7:31 PM,
Sheryl said…
If I were a preacher in a church, I would not tell my congregation what to think. Instead, I would assign debate topics. I'd say: "Next week the debate topic is whether the Bible supports a pre-emptive attack on Iraq or not."
Then the congregation would have to think about it and defend their views through the scripture against others in their congregation with the opposing view.
And if they wanted to bring in other religions, then that would be great as well. Forget being told what to think, think for yourself. And you are right, Snave.
That does make people harder to control, but isn't that why Jesus supposedly took his whip to the synagogues? To question the legitimacy of the religious power structure of his time? I mean, I don't know--I'm no religious scholar, but I bet that played a part in it.
At 10:18 PM,
Sheryl said…
In our city we have a Tri-Faith Dialogue Group that represents muslim, christian, and jewish leaders ALL advocating working together to promote tolerance and understanding amongst their various religions.
I also regularly get requests from Walter Cronkite in the mail for the national group the Interfaith Alliance, so it's not as if you don't have religious leaders promoting peaceful dialog amongst one another.
The problem is that some people look for bridges to others who they think might be somewhat different from themselves, and some people try to burn the bridges between themselves and people who might be different.
It's like home schooling. What is that about other than an attempt to ensure that your kids are not exposed to choices? Because they might choose different routes in life than the ones you have chosen. Some people are afraid of choices because the unknown is ambiguous.
At 11:48 PM,
Samwick said…
Thanks for the comments Sheryl!
"I think the basis for bigotry are generalizations...I think viewing all christians as the same is just as ludicrous"
I agree with your first sentence and sort of disagree with your second sentence. Generalizing (as I did in the post) is a mistake. I actually do feel like the vast majority of Christians are decent people. The problem is that homophobia in this country is growing, it needs to be stopped and Christians are the only people who can stop it. This is why I sort of disagree with the second sentence...people like Senator Rick Santorum are trying to use the bible to justify their homophobia, so I think it's okay to suggest that it's Christians who need to step up to the plate and oppose him. Itis an outgrowth of their religion whether they like it or not. Again, most are good people, but WAY too many Christians are silent on this topic...this fuels the problem and my message is aimed at them, the ones who are nice but standing on the sidelines. The redneck, homophibic crowd could care less about tolerance. I think that most Christians WANT to be tolerant and my overall point is that now is the time to put to this into practice. It's why I provided a link to this article...gays in my town are being targeted yet no one is talking about it.
However, you mention a Tri-faith dialogue group and this is really where my post is wrong. There are, in fact, Christians who openly support tolerance. For a post designed to "clarify" things, I didn't clarify very much, did I? This was really more of a exagerrated rant, so I did generalize too much. Still, these Christians who are tolerant and vocal are in the minority. The president of the United States is openly opposed to gay marriage...Santorum has equated homosexuality with bestiality. This sort of crap is in the mainstream. If Christians want to pat themselves on the back for their supposedly loving religion then they need to adamantly oppose this republican hate-mongering.
I'll tell you a secret, though: Not only was I a Christian for a VERY long time...I even attended seminary for two years. My only goal is to kick some folks in the pants, not to generalize (which I did and will try not to do in the future). I just appreciate your comments...I tend to learn a lot when people disagree with me...
At 12:08 AM,
Samwick said…
Hi Anonymous. I am so sorry to hear about your identity problem. I read the Stranger by Camus and personal anonymity must really suck. Watch Oprah, she's all about finding yourself.
"It's kind of like how even though only a minority of Muslims are terrorists, none of the leaders do anything about it"
This depends on where you are talking about. In the Middle East, you are right...Islamic theocracies there are sustained by religious fanatics/leaders who look the other way at best, and usually support violence against gays and women. However, you'll be happy to know that European muslims have come out strongly against the recent London bombings.
You're comment is basically in line with my point: silence is a part of the problem. European muslims aren't being silent, thankfully. I wish American Christians were as vocal about our forms of hate.
Anyway, take care...
At 12:14 AM,
Samwick said…
by the way Sheryl, another comment of mine needs clarifying:
"Christians who are tolerant and vocal are in the minority"
I don't think tolerant Christians are in the minority...I think tolerant VOCAL Christians are in the minority. I think most are good people but silent on this important issue. I don't think I made that clear.
Take care...
At 1:44 AM,
Sheryl said…
Hey Matt,
I think the heart of what you are discussing is passivity, which is really bad in this country regardless of faith. People just sit back and watch bad things happen here cause they don't know what they can do. And they are convinced that they have no power.
You can write letters to the papers that won't be published or will have the important points edited from them. You can march in protests that the media will not cover or will outright misrespresent. You can write letters to your congressmen and some congressional aide will merely choose which form letter to mail you back while your actual legislator has no idea you even wrote, much less what you said. If you use the congressional email, then the form letters are automated. You can vote in elections and not really know if your vote was counted because there is no paper trail.
Blogs are great, but their reach is limited.
So I think it's difficult, whether you are christian or not. I don't particularly feel like christians have more power than I do. Power is all about understanding the limitations of the structure and finding creative ways around them. My christian friends are dealing with the same feelings of helplessness that I am in a culture with so many dead ends.
The only real advantage that religious groups have is that they meet regularly, which helps them organize better.
Here in San Antonio there is a group called the Freethinkers. I have met many of them, and they are extremely intelligent and dynamic people, but I think they only meet once a month. The christians, on the other hand, meet every week. I think it is a mistake that secularists meet so infrequently. Not just because it limits their involvement, but also they can't build a community and support structures as well that way.
To me that is what religious groups have that I wish I had more of--community. But I think the secularists are starting to figure this out.
I organized a Secular Humanist Caucus at the Texas State Democratic Convention. We had about 90 people sign in, but when I tried to set up a Yahoo discussion group, no one seemed willing to post. I think the problem is that skeptics want proof, so they are only willing to get involved in something if they are certain that their energy will not be wasted. Because involvement itself requires faith--faith that some untested endeavor is possible.
In fact, have you ever thought about the fact that hope itself is a form of faith? It's one I believe is essential to coping with life. Because when things get really dismal, the proof is not always there that things can or will get better. You just have to have faith that they can because they have before. But that's another reason that religious people sometimes accomplish more is that they don't need so much proof of viability. They just do things cause they think their god(s) will be happy about it.
I think the bottom line to empowerment for any group is creativity. Find a way around the institutional barriers and reach enough people to make things happen.
And what a wonderful discussion you have started!!! And you are not even christian anymore. :-)
At 11:13 AM,
Snave said…
You are all so insightful!
Matt, you went to INSEMINARY for two years? Aieee!! I never participated at that level, although I considered it at one point, when in my late teens. You undoubtedly have a pretty good knowledge of the Bible, then. I have read through the book a few times, and participated in numerous study groups, most of which were (thankfully) mainstream protestant in nature. The pastors at the Methodist church here have always tended to be extremely liberal in their views, and they tend to encourage the questioning of one's faith.
At 11:39 PM,
Sheryl said…
Yeah, we need to write more progressive rock. Eh, Snave? :-)
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